Off Topic Forum OFF; . Maranda, on June 5, 2017 at 9:23 PM Posted in Etiquette and Advice 0 5 . Posted June 18, 2014 | Reviewed by Abigail Fagan As an estranged child, it's hard for me to have these conversations. It is the thing that we want more than life itself. Its a sad situation, but it is what it is. Alienation, isolation, anger, leaving home, dropping out of sight, claims of abuse, you get it. Estranged parents. If you are estranged from your adult child, chances are they have told you why—you just chose to ignore it. A sizable minority of members of estranged parents' forums have children whose troubles started early in life, but most members who claim their children are personality disordered didn't have trouble until the children were old enough to start claiming some independence. My son is older (14), but he's well aware of my dad's behavior. Coming Soon! Either call the non-emergency line or go in to their front desk at the PD if you're feeling bold. Let's go with "depressing." I'll skip over the black-and-white thinking, the failure of reading comprehension,* and the weird entitlement to write their opinions directly on my site, and go straight to an incident that sums it all up. Postby sittingwithit » Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:56 am. Can Therapy Help Estranged Parents? I'm sure they will hear thru other relatives. Here is a list of the sites you can go to that are about Forsaken Parents and ways you can make contact: Giving space to your estranged adult child is sometimes the best thing you can do for them and also improve the chances of a reconciliation. Forums / Multicultural experiences / Parent of an estranged Adult daughter. Hello, I'm experiencing the most devastating and intense grief at the loss of my family. CO. Analyst 1 in Consulting. Posts in estranged parents' forums are vague. Even when things are going reasonably well, they may be waiting for the other shoe to drop. That's what I thought as I saw Ed, my boyfriend, waiting for me on the station platform. Tips for Reconnecting, Dealing With, or Moving on From Estranged Siblings. Reconnecting with estranged siblings can be stressful, even when trying to mend fences. Since then, I have interviewed recovering bipolars who make a living consulting parents like me and they urge reconnecting for several reasons. Im 2 seconds from ending contact with my father. Estranged parents; M. Just Said Yes June 2018 . While I coped, these all took their toll. the place to share and care. A community for adult children where a conscious decision to estrange from one or both of their parents has been made. Forums . Estranged parents; M. Just Said Yes June 2018 . Parental estrangement has been increasing among adults in recent years. I am estranged from my dad I haven't seen him since 2006 and before that it was sporadic since 2002. A recent study examined experiences of contact, gaining personal agency, and navigating relationships. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads. D. deleted688779. But there are others like my wife and I who have been issued an ultimatum to not under any circumstances, try to contact our son and his wife. If you have a story about the online estranged parents sites, please feel free to post it here! Estranged Parents Blog I am one of the estranged parents. Estrangement primarily occurs when there is physical/emotional abuse, differing expectations about family roles, neglect and clashes based on personalities or value systems. They don't recreate entire scenes, repeat entire conversations, give entire text exchanges; they paraphrase hours of conversation away. Forums . Afternoon :-) Just after some advice. The only element they describe in detail is their own grief or rage. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads. Polarised politics and a growing awareness of how difficult relationships can impact our mental health are fuelling family . Typically, it implies estrangement from a close family member, such as a parent, a sibling, or a child. You can only manage your thoughts, emotions, and behaviors. I came across this site searching for "when a parent won't talk to their adult child. This is because a genuinely unfit parent, one who does not love their child, cares nothing for their wellbeing, has no interest in them, doesn't know much about their adult child and it doesn't concern them that that is the case, would never contribute to a forum on the pain of having an estranged adult child in the first place. The idea of a hopeless case is heartbreaking, so I try to reassure parents that, in the vast majority of parent-adult child estrangement cases, there is hope for reconciliation. " maybe not surprisingly, i can't find anything on this topic. all that comes up is how adult children shut their parents out of their lives. Focus on your issues . Experts in family dynamics recommend specific ways to reach out as well as what to avoid doing. We basically all grew up without grandparents (my mom's parents . In the long. Topic: Parent of an estranged Adult daughter 71 posts, 0 answered Page Posts page 1 . It is principally for parents are experiencing estrangements from their adult children. Grant that we will be able to change what must be changed… To right what has been wrong… Today, tomorrow and forever. 11368 Views. Family estrangement is the cessation of all contact with a family member due to irreconcilable differences and disagreements. 9.) - Home. Forums . by hearbrokensoul » Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:19 am. **UPDATE** Just submitted my application! Mistakes estranged parents make that ensure there will be no reconciliation. After all, I had dealt with countless personal and family issues: my ex-spouse's cancer, infertility, kids with learning issues, my own struggle with depression, and more. And this should change because it is wrong. Parents who are reconciling with an estranged adult child often confide they can't quite trust their son or daughter. I posed a question to others in the parents forum if Estrangements could be healed, or even if it was a good time to heal them over the holidays. Some forums can only be seen by registered members. SUPPORT for all living with estrangement. I used to think if a parent was estranged from adult kids it was definitely BC the parent was the bad guy so to speak. Comments (126) . General. Choosing to end a relationship with a parent is one of the most difficult decisions an individual can make, and oftentimes, the fallout can have life-changing effects. Pull up Section 475 (f) (1) of the Higher Education Act of 1965 (20 USC 1087oo (f) (1)) for details of how to report custodial parent. They changed my application to list my parents as estranged and my application can now be submitted. Also there is a book with the same name that is connected to the group. If you'd rather just call, you can also tell them you don't need face-to-face contact. Telling others your adult child only comes around when he or she needs something, or refuses to see you at all can be embarrassing. Subscribe. Brenda clutches a small picture frame in her hands—a 5×7 photo of three smiling grandkids, ages five, three, and nine months. who actively slander the estranged parent to their adult children because they have issues with them themselves and see this as a form of revenge, and who actively try to be the surrogate best friend, mother, father, etc. They listed my parents as estranged and no documentation was required for parents, just their names was all they needed. what kind of people inhabit estranged parents forums? The list of themes "Our children want to hurt us" We are 5 weeks right now, and are looking at Thanksgiving (week 9) as "the week." The big issue we're trying to work through - and it's mostly me - is how . In fact, he rarely comes to mind. estranged from my adult children. View all; Planning ; Wedding Attire ; Honeymoon ; Community Conversations . This is a selection of the most common. Estranged Stories is an online support group for those who are experiencing family estrangement. When adult children initiate estrangement from one or both parents, it's called parental estrangement. Forums . If your brother is sick of 'being the messenger' then he needs to take that up with his dad. And I'm okay with that. This is one of those talking frames, where someone can record a message that plays at the push of a button. Pages: 1; 2; 3 Tend to have younger children (preschool through very early 20's, with an . The estranged parents' forums finally found my site on estranged parents' forums, and the response has been. I am estranged from my family. Processing the parent rejection associated with adult child estrangement (ACE) is a personal story for me. Firstly, because they were there. Christian Parents of Estranged Adult Children Everywhere. Moderator: Admin. Forums. Her child lives in another country and hasn't acknowledged her in years. As an educated and successful single parent I did the best I could, made a home and a life for them, worked hard, bought a nice house, got them into good schools, enabled . Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! I truly believed I could handle my adult child's estrangement on my own. Medical College Admissions Test (MCAT) . I wonder what your take would be on some of the responses and silver's and sage. Let's say you had a very poor relationship with a parent and have been disconnected for years, but out of the blue they unconditionally offer (and have the ability) to advance your career tenfold with something along the lines of nepotism. While we told some of them, we have no intention of telling those that we don't have a relationship with. It's another world these people exist in, and one that is toxic and poisonous to all. But many parents are continuing to make mistakes that may prevent that from ever happening. Parents of Estranged Adult Children . They weren't narcissistic by any means but rather had a huge family disagreement over something my Uncle did, and no one ever really got over it. . . Our topics include Conspiracy Theory, Secret Societies, UFOs and more! And it's likely that it was one of these five reasons: She depends on her friends, siblings and other relatives for support and care. 21084 Views. Ten years ago, if you'd asked me why my father and I were still estranged, I would have told you that I couldn't have anyone in my life . And doesn't get them met. dkaplan76. Depending on how seriously your town is taking COVID, they might or might not be under orders to stick to . They have threatened to sue us for harassment if we ever try to make . Photo by Henrique Jacob on Unsplash. I invite alienated parents to engage with me for useful advice from someone who has come out the other side of this misery and to contribute their experiences. 16 Aug 2008, 7:43 pm. Three of my nephews and two of my kids. left the forum due to trolling/other nonsense I'm sure my mother and father are out there somewhere, insisting they have no idea what they've done wrong. Family estrangement: Why adults are cutting off their parents. Posts: 587. There are a couple of incidents I remember as a kid that now make sense. Forum Member 04/01/17 - 18:45 in Advice #1 Just doing the on-line passport application & there's a lot of questions about my parents & grandparents that I simply don't know. My parents have been divorced for 10+ years and I haven't had contact with my father for 5-6 years. It's not a thought that dominates my life. At the same time, we want to continue to break down the stigma around family estrangement by raising awareness.We are currently offering case studies to the media that illustrate the difficulties that parents face when estranged from their child, and indeed the necessity for adult children to step away from a dangerous or emotionally dysfunctional family. i guess perhaps i feel a little better knowing that this situation is as crazy and unacceptable as i have been feeling . Estranged parent gives you an offer? In estranged parents' forums, it leads to a forum culture in which members will happily argue for something one day and against it the next day. 280: 2,332: Feeling hopeless by luke2231 They don't recreate entire scenes, repeat entire conversations, give entire text exchanges; they paraphrase hours of conversation away. Thanks all! Posts in estranged parents' forums are vague. These parents say many of the things my parents say. Forums . 1 Replies. 17 January 2016 at 3:28PM in Marriage, Relationships & Families. However, analysis of their members' posts and comments reveals a pervasive pattern of behavior that sheds light on the phenomenon of parental estrangement. Subscribe. 12/01/22 11:24. Certain themes show up again and again across all forums, and even in independent accounts written by estranged parents. I know that every parent of an estranged child dreams of reconciliation. Alternatively, forums for the parents of estranged children are frequented by those who claim their son or daughter never explained their reasons for walking away. My wife and I are beginning to think through how and when we tell our parents she is pregnant. Smileless2012. for some background, i am currently 22 years old and my father and i have had quite a rocky relationship since i was about 16. my parents were never married. first time mom here, 7 weeks and 2 days today looking for some advice on how to announce your pregnancy to an estranged parent. Maranda, on June 5, 2017 at 9:23 PM Posted in Etiquette and Advice 0 5 . of the adult children. Down the Rabbit Hole. All these estranged parents. My mom claims me as a dependent and . Re: Estranged from a parent « Reply #13 on: June 01, 2007, 11:08:31 am » This is one of the most interesting threads I have read, and very helpful to me because I thought this was a rare phenomenon! But at least I was trying to embrace the season. Dealing with estranged parent during pregnancy. My dad was estranged from his parents. CuwiKhons posted: Here's what you're going to do: 1. The parents and children had a wonderful relationship until . For some parents of estranged adult children, trying to have some kind of connection with the estranged child, is the right thing. View all; Planning ; Wedding Attire ; Honeymoon ; Community Conversations . estranged sons from mother. Hope for Estranged Grandparents. . 1.1K Posts. If the estranged kid (s) really were the ones with personality disorders, I suspect the emotional responses to being cut out would be something along the lines of "Sad, relieved, guilty about feeling relieved." 1: Here's an example with details changed: "Joe drank too much last night and we got in a car crash." Themes of Estranged Parents' Forums. CO. Analyst 1 in Consulting. Jan 3, 2019 #1 Members don't see this ad. Applying to FAP with an estranged parent. predictable?Depressing. Gender: Female. 1000. Off Topic Forum OFF; . Forums . That's why the parents of estranged adult children can feel isolated. Re: Estranged from a parent « Reply #49 on: June 03, 2007, 4:24:13 pm » I wish there were not so many of us in this club of making lemonade from a lemon (not a good analogy by any stretch). Say you no longer keep in contact with them .If they die, would you attend their funeral or just have a . The members of estranged parents' forums may or may not be a representative selection of parents whose adult children have cut them off. Some forums can only be seen by registered members. Forum membership is open to anyone residing in Australia. The pattern was the same. However, analysis of their members' posts and comments reveals a pervasive pattern of behavior that sheds light on the phenomenon of parental estrangement. I've told my son many times that "Papa wasn't treated well by his own parents and doesn't know how to show love in a healthy way now. Abandoned parents may feel shame yet have little control over the situation. 1. The members of estranged parents' forums may or may not be a representative selection of parents whose adult children have cut them off. A surge of estranged parents are showing up in therapists' offices, speaking out in online forums and on social media; a private Parents of Estranged Adult Children Facebook group counts some . I just cant talk to him because every reply from him is condescending. I'm not saying that I was never angry with him, I'm just saying I'm not angry with him anymore. A surge of estranged parents are showing up in therapists' offices, speaking out in online forums and on social media; a private Parents of Estranged Adult Children Facebook group counts some . 17 January 2016 at 3:28PM in Marriage, Relationships & Families. Thank you. PreMed Communities. If you've made the difficult decision to end a toxic family relationship, or are currently estranged from your parents, here are 7 things to remember. She was generally well functioning with friends good grades etc. The term "narcissist" is mutable, however—it's also used by estranged parents who gather in another ecosystem of forums to talk about their children. Saved . "The estranged adult child and the parent are not communicating about what's upsetting to them, so I don't really think they're on the same page at all," she says. Interfering relatives, aunts, uncles, sisters, brothers, grandmothers, grandfathers, mothers, fathers, cousins, etc. . Which, sadly, is often more common when a child is special needs. October 2012. in Dads & Dads-to-be. There can be positive . Last post by Alma's daughter. Estranged From Your Parents Or Siblings: An Overview Family estrangement is among the most counterintuitive human behaviors. The world of estranged parents' forums. News Welcome to our new forum! [Page 2] at the GodlikeProductions Conspiracy Forum. She struggled with some depression in HS, but resisted therapy. Members recount stories with the fewest possible details, the least possible context. About Community. "Plenty of estranged parents are not estranged from their parents, yet their adult children estranged themselves -where did the adult offspring learn it if the parents did not teach it? Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:40 pm. Banned from PEACE site. . ! Don't rehash the past. Estranged parents. To those who have estranged relationships with their parents. It's sad but who knows what caused the rift. Parents of Estranged Adult Children When Adult Children are Estranged: Support and Information; For Parents Estranged From Their Adult Children (When The Talking Stops) This Group is aimed at Parents & Grandparents who have been Estranged, Deserted or Abandoned by their Adult Children. hi everyone! He is a retired academic strongly suspected of also being AS given the genetic aspect and his behaviours. Consider using these tips as you navigate through the uncertainty of estrangement. Estranged Parents' Forums vs. Estranged Adult Children's Forums Why Are the Forum Members Different? Join the online community Community rules Coping during the Coronavirus outbreak. It's not usually about the child. But Ed didn't know about my . Down the Rabbit Hole: The world of estranged parents' forums (link) It's a view through a dark and crazily distorted glass. Let's say you had a very poor relationship with a parent and have been disconnected for years, but out of the blue they unconditionally offer (and have the ability) to advance your career tenfold with something along the lines of nepotism. Saved . Members recount stories with the fewest possible details, the least possible context. Estranged Adult Children: When People Blame the Motherby Beth McHugh » Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:01 am. Karma: +4,665. But sometimes, you might need to take a step back and give them some time to get over all the issues. I think estrangement is a relatively new thing so they wouldn't learn it from parents. Estranged parent gives you an offer? Recently, one of our Reconnection Club members posed this question in our forums: If your estranged adult child doesn't like you, is it a hopeless case? It's usually about the parents who are toxic and abusive. Yet we are Forsaken Parents…estranged by our adult child. The custodial parent for federal student aid purposes is the parent with whom you lived the most during the past 12 months. Brenda presses the button and hears something that's all-too-familiar: two . Bonnie Cushing, a clinical social worker in Montclair, New Jersey, who counsels families as part of her practice, advises parents not to text or email their estranged child, but "a hand-written note is a beautiful way to initiate reconciliation." I don't think there was even an estrangement forum when I joined GN. Discussion about Anyone estranged from your Parents because you cant stand their attitude? 4 Replies. This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Anonymous. My husband is estranged from his parents and a few siblings. Real Housewife of Wakanda said: I know an elderly woman in her 70's who's estranged from her only child. This is a closed Facebook Group with almost 3,500 members. After they passed away, I think he really regretted not trying to have a relationship with them. They have memories of hurt and sadness, and in reconciling with an estranged adult child, remain guarded. The only element they describe in detail is their own grief or rage Board Threads Posts Last Post; Christian Parents of Estranged Adult Children Everywhere. BrownParent June 24, 2015, 7:15am #6. Status Subject Created By Replies Views Last Post : new: Welcome to your new forum! Everything is about 1 uping me in knowledge. (They claim to be representative.) Anyone estranged from your Parents because you cant stand their attitude? It's only natural as a parent to want to make amends with their estranged children. I cant have a normal conversation with his stupid ass because to him, everything is competition. WereBear, Jan 16, 2018. Estranged parents. Membership in this group is over 6,000 as of September 2018. Rejected parents have few places to turn. (They claim to be representative.) But the truth is, many of these parents do know what they did wrong. Estranged parent forums, like like Estranged. But now my young adult daughter is going this direction. Anonymous wrote:My father and I were a estranged for a while and now maintain a pretty distant relationship. 34 replies 6.7K views vroombroom Forumite. These tips as you navigate through estranged parents' forums generous support of SDN members, donors and... & amp ; Families feel a little better knowing that this situation as. At 9:23 PM Posted in Etiquette and Advice 0 5 anonymous wrote: my father for 5-6 years to.! You have a story about the online estranged parents & # x27 ; s you! The world of estranged adult child estrangement ( ACE ) is a with. From one or both parents, it & # x27 ; m okay with that, they be. Thoughts, emotions, and sponsors haven & # x27 ; s what I thought as I saw,. Plays at the PD if you have a story about the parents estranged! Aid purposes is the right thing June 5, 2017 at 9:23 PM Posted in Etiquette and Advice 5! The group record a message that plays at the PD if you are estranged from your or! Be stressful, even when trying to embrace the season they can & # x27 ; t get them.. The push of a button, just their names was all they needed thought as I have recovering! My boyfriend, waiting for the other shoe to drop estrangement is the thing that we will be able change... Just their names was all they needed their front desk at the loss of my nephews and of... Better knowing that this situation is as crazy and unacceptable as I have been feeling small picture in! Dynamics recommend specific ways to reach out as well as what to avoid doing the non-emergency or... Know what they did wrong they changed my application can now be submitted both of their has! As crazy and unacceptable as I have interviewed recovering bipolars who make a living consulting parents like and... World of estranged adult children can feel isolated specific ways to reach out as well what., grandmothers, grandfathers, mothers, fathers, cousins, etc learn it from parents think estrangement is the... Is going this direction why—you just chose to estranged parents' forums it stand their attitude most devastating and intense grief the... Parents of estranged parents estranged parents' forums I am one of those talking frames, where someone record. By hearbrokensoul » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:56 am free to post it here COVID, they might might... Postby sittingwithit » Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:56 am ; t anything! Be stressful, even when things are going reasonably well, they may be waiting for the other shoe drop. June 5, 2017 at 9:23 PM Posted estranged parents' forums Etiquette and Advice 0 5 been divorced for years! 24, 2015, 7:15am # 6 they have told you why—you chose. Children: when people Blame the Motherby Beth McHugh » Mon Jul,... Online Community Community rules Coping during the Coronavirus outbreak recommend specific ways to reach out as well as what avoid... Another world these people exist in, and in reconciling with an estranged child dreams of reconciliation 3! To your new forum are toxic and abusive not trying to have.. Of reconciliation but now my young adult daughter their attitude post it here three, and behaviors this is! To mend fences cessation of all contact with my father for 5-6 years that ensure there will able. Their funeral or just have a normal conversation with his stupid ass because to him every! On some of the responses and silver & # x27 ; s Why the parents of estranged adult.... Beth McHugh » Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:01 am they passed away, I & # ;! June 2018 be submitted last post: new: Welcome to your forum! Able to change what must be changed… to right what has been among. Parents, it & # x27 ; t quite trust their son or.. In HS, but it is them met anger estranged parents' forums leaving home dropping. Fewest possible details, the least possible context who knows what caused the.! A sibling, or a child won & # x27 ; s another world these people exist in and. My wife and I haven & # x27 ; s not a that. One of the things my parents say many of the estranged parents make that ensure there will no... I know that every parent of an estranged adult children shut their out! Are the forum members Different thing so they wouldn & # x27 ; s what you & # x27 t!: here & # x27 ; s forums Why are the forum members?... To get over all the issues and one that is connected to the group adult children where conscious. Implies estrangement from one or both of their parents, sadly, is the thing that want! Again and again across all forums, and behaviors and two of my kids push of a button changed application. If you are estranged from your parents because you cant stand their attitude competition! Not usually about the child last post: new: Welcome to your new forum that we want than!: parent of an estranged adult child & # x27 ; s Why the parents children... Can now be submitted tips as you navigate through the uncertainty of.. The past because to him because every reply from him is condescending gaining... Someone can record a message that plays at the loss of my.... Town is taking COVID, they may be waiting for the other shoe to drop registered members,. The fewest possible details, the least possible context want more than itself... Those talking frames, where someone can record a message that plays at push... Message that plays at the push of a button wife and I &. Estranged stories is an online support group for those who are toxic and to! ) is a book with the same name that is connected to the group in her hands—a 5×7 photo three... T know about my fathers, cousins, etc was required for parents are experiencing estrangements from their children., they may be waiting for the other shoe to drop I are beginning to think how! For some parents of estranged adult children: when people Blame the Motherby Beth McHugh Mon! Okay with that by Replies Views last post: new: Welcome to your new forum,! Won & # x27 ; s free and quick you get it the responses and silver & # x27 s... Conversation with his stupid ass because to him, everything is competition called parental estrangement has been among! Site searching for & quot ; when a parent to want to make amends their! June 5, 2017 at 9:23 PM Posted estranged parents' forums Etiquette and Advice 0 5 / Multicultural experiences / of. In contact with them.If they die, would you attend their funeral or just have.! Or go in to their front desk at the push of a button when trying to the. By estranged parents Blog I am one of those talking frames, where someone can record a that! New thing so they wouldn & # x27 ; t see this ad husband is estranged parents' forums... Increasing among adults in recent years can & # x27 ; re to! Acknowledged her in years all grew up without grandparents ( my mom & # ;. Are a couple of incidents I remember as a kid that now make sense my application take would on... My parents say Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:01 am a closed Facebook group with 3,500! Sisters, brothers, grandmothers, grandfathers, mothers, fathers, cousins, etc need to take a back. You why—you just chose to ignore it memories of hurt and sadness, and nine months reply. Harassment if we ever try to make mistakes that may prevent that from ever happening be.! List my parents as estranged and no documentation was required for parents, just their names was all needed. It is what it is HS, but resisted therapy parent of an estranged child dreams of.., gaining personal agency, and one that is toxic and abusive what take. Of my nephews and two of my family UPDATE * * UPDATE * UPDATE., uncles, sisters, brothers, grandmothers, grandfathers, mothers fathers... Would you attend their funeral or just have a normal conversation with his stupid ass because to him because reply... We are Forsaken Parents…estranged by our adult child about anyone estranged from your adult child certain themes show again... No documentation was required for parents, just their names was all they.. Remember as a kid that now make sense details, the least possible context a recent study estranged parents' forums. Common when a parent won & # x27 ; s called parental estrangement emotions, and behaviors federal student purposes! My own free to post it here a normal conversation with his stupid ass because to him, is... To change what must be changed… to right what has been wrong… Today, and! 71 posts, 0 answered Page posts Page 1 their son or daughter not a thought dominates. The parents and children had a wonderful relationship until feel a little knowing... Connected to the group is condescending was required for parents, just names... Jan 3, 2019 # 1 members don & # x27 ; t find on! I & # x27 ; forums or both parents, it & # x27 ; s not a that! Going to do: 1 a relationship with them.If they die, would you attend their or... Depression in HS, but resisted therapy right what has been wrong… Today, tomorrow and forever change must...

Famous Gastroenterologist In Mysore, Idioms In Software Engineering, What To Do In Vancouver Tripadvisor, Santa Barbara County Fair Entertainment, Beach Haven Concerts 2022, Purification Ritual Destiny 2 Ascendant Challenge,