Well, a lot to cover here. He says in Philippians 3:7 that whatever gain he had as a Pharisee he counted as loss for the sake of Christ. In Galatians 1:13 he calls his Jewish zealotry a former way of life, and in 1 Corinthians 9:20 Paul explicitly says he was not under the Mosaic law, which was a non-negotiable belief for the Pharisees. I do believe thats good evidence that Mary was Josephs second wife, at least thats my personal view, but that doesnt prove that Mary didnt give birth to others. It would be an evidence chip, if you will, for it that we have to balance with other evidences. [foreign language 00:26:34] was also used in literature that existed at roughly the same time period as the New Testament. Scripture reveals Mary was a Virgin, but conflicts with her being a perpetual Virgin. If Luke was communicating Jesus was Marys only child, he wouldve used the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:55] translated only begotten, rather than [foreign language 00:04:57] like he did elsewhere in his gospel, such as in Luke 7:12, 8:42 and 9:38.And in John 3:16, where Jesus is the only begotten son of God, meaning the only one. Im also going to send Matt a link to my other channel, verasage.us/stevechristie. Debate: Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon? Well start with an easy one, the Bodily Assumption of Mary. The Greek root is used in Matthew 1:21 to describe Jesus who will save his people from their sins. Lets see. Of course, but how do we know that Andrew is also the son of Jonah? And he went on to say that Muslims and Christians worship the same God when in fact they dont because the Christian God is Jesus and the Muslim God is Allah, and is not Jesus. And Steve and I also both agreed that the universality of things like sin or death dont preclude exceptions. Thank you very much. It is not mentioned in any book of the Bible, protocanonical or deuterocanonical, nor in any ancient nonbiblical witnesses such as Josephus or Philo. Apologetics for the Masses #366 - 4 Words That Changed the World, Part III. Were going to talk about the dogmas of the faith. I just think, Well, yeah, Id also want to make my foster father perfect. He is also a registered nurse and Steve discusses the challenges of balancing ministry and a career. This has led biblical scholars to make a variety of proposals for the identity of this Zechariah. Though, I think that is a salvation issue actually. While Mary is a conceived in sin creation. So Im going to put a link in the description below. Those would be irrelevant to the question. Steve Ray was the third of five children in a family that became Baptist in the 1950s. Ye, because Jesus younger half sibling was Joseph while Jesus father was God. My colleague, Tim Staples, has written an entire book on Mary called Behold Your Mother. Second Samuel 6:23 says, Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to or eos the day of her death. Which of course she did not have children after she died. This is not a commitment to lend. When Mary declared God, my savior. In Luke 1:47, she understood that Jesus was the savior to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins, in Acts 5:31 and in Titus 2:9-11, which included her own. No. So lets apply these standards to the remaining dogmas. We now are going to have four minute rebuttals. Second thing I want to point out is you should consider joining our locals community. Youve got 10 minutes to cross-examine Trent. And I think one way that makes sense would be if Joseph had been previously married. Yeah. In Isaiah 7:16 it talks about a time before a child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. Please try again later. While the wages of sin is death refers to spiritual death, that is the second death. Its a very beautiful open community and you get free daily podcasts and I think youd really enjoy it. In week 7 vs. the San Diego Chargers, Christie kicked a 29-yard field goal with just :11 seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. Steve Christie also has his own website. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. I mean, because honestly I believe that all three do contradict all of them. Theres no divine judgment on Mary in any form described here in Mark chapter three. If Mary kept the law, she could not be made righteous since righteousness does not come from keeping the law, but through Christs death. I think thats really terrific. Im running out of time. If it was, the New Testament writers would not deviate from it occasionally and use their own Greek translation. Okay. See Genesis 35:23, Deuteronomy 21:15, Joshua 6:26, 1 Chronicles 3:1, and Hebrews 11:28, where firstborn is also used this way. And remember this is the focus of our debate, how its used in scripture. Many Protestant scholars say Wis-dom 2 either contains a messianic prophecy or Matthew used this passage as a template when he described Jesus crucifixion. on The word paraphrase very frequently provides adequate description of the relationship (Introducing the Apocrypha, 22). The first man Adam is from the earth, earthy. After chemotherapy and radiation treatments in Buffalo, he underwent two successful surgeries at the Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio. When Jesus mother and brothers approach him later in verse 31, Jesus contrasts his biological brothers who dishonored him with his disciples, who were his spiritual brothers, who did the will of God. So wed only asked does the bible teach that Mary had sexual relations. So, if the greatest of those born before Christ wasnt constricted to accepting the canon Christie is defending, then we shouldnt be compelled to do the same, either. So if Mary died, which the dogma, the bodily assumption in 1950 strongly implies, this demonstrates Mary inherited original sin from Adam. Id probably enjoy Polycarp. Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Top podcast episodes Steve. Christie is currently President of Relative Goal Sports and Entertainment Management LLC., certified as a Canadian Football League contract advisor and has represented numerous musical acts in both the United States and Scotland. Solo performances by Steve Christie bring all the sound of a live band to your special event. In Speaking for the Unborn, Dr. Steven Christie offers very clear, convincing, and often witty answers to almost every possible argument in favor of abortion. So while not common, it is used. For example, Jesus said among those born of women none was greater than John the Baptist (Luke 7:28)and John was not a Pharisee. Were were talking about whats actually used in the New Testament, because even the New Testament writers would deviate from the Septuagint occasionally, because they would use a better translation. Im not alone in believing this. Just as eating from the tree of life wouldve resulted in Adam physically living forever likewise, Adam, eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, result put into him physically dying. Now, does the Bible teach that everyone has sinned? Christie claims we can know God inspired the Protestant Old Testament canon because God chose Paul, a Pharisee, to be an apostle. Do it, or dont do it. Its called Morning Coffee, where we all sit down together, have a coffee and have a very casual chat. Can you give one example in the New Testament where it describes God or Jesus being a preemptive savior instead of a redemptive redeeming savior? However, the earliest evidence for this alleged event comes 600 years afterward, in the second century after Christ. Matthew 18:17 says, Jesus says, If a person who sins against you refuses to listen to you or two or three witnesses, tell it to the church. And it seems to envision the church as having some kind of authoritative structure and not simply as the invisible bond between all believers. He took his wife, but knew her not until she had born a son and he called his name Jesus. But the Greek word for until, eos, does not always entail a reversal of condition. Whether youre up to speed or not on the contents of the Deuterocanon, this is an insightf. So I would say that James and Joseph are also the son of the sons of Joseph. Advertisement "God gave us the greatest apologist of this. Yeah. Fair enough, Steve shaking his head no, but well leave it at that for now. How do we know theyre brothers? My point was that we should not believe in doctrines that plainly contradict Scripture. And then it says, when you refer to adelphe, when you look that up, it only has two meanings. Its a good Greek translation. But you will search in vain for Ammorites, Jebusites or Hittites. Dr. Tony Costa and Steve Christie, The Issue of Canon and Sola Scriptura - The Council, Presuppositional Apologetics Round Up: Third week of August 2021 | The Domain for Truth, Response to Sam Shamoun's post Purgatory debate recap of Dr. Michael Brown against William Albrecht - The Council, Responding to Gary Michuta's Abel to Zechariah Counter-Arguments with Steve Christie & Paul - The Council, The Marian Dogmas Contradict Scripture, Trent Horn Vs. Steve Christie - The Council, Necessitarianism: Conceive of the Possibilities. Its a way to begin exploration of it. Well, whats interesting is that Steve actually had very good objections to some of these arguments. So he would be referred to as the son of Joseph sometimes. And also Greek scholars do not rule that out. In that respect Marys Magnificat parallels Hannahs song in 1 Samuel. January 07, 1964. So Steves defending the affirmative. He serves as a staff apologist for Catholic Answers, where he specializes in teaching Catholics to graciously and persuasively engage those who disagree with them. And if that is your authority, thats what makes you a Protestant. Shameless plug. 1644440684524367. steve.christie@phmloans.com. One of these would be Psalm 69, where it says of the Messiah, I have become a stranger to my brethren, an alien to my mothers sons. The messianic Psalms are applied to Jesus, but not in literal ways. What am I to do with this? This dogma was defined by Pope Pius the ninth, but not ex cathedra in 1854 and is not shared by the Eastern Orthodox, despite not skisming with the West until the 11th century demonstrating that this was a much later development foreign to the New Testament writers and the early church. So we could assume that they have the same biological mother and father. You can also speak of adoptive children using biological language. The immaculate conception, should we dogmatize should we not?, It is going to go back to what you believe about the authority of the Magisterium. Did I have one other thing here? You just have to join locals in the same way youd have to join Twitter or Facebook to get access to it. Thats why he says theres no distinction among people in verse 22 or in Romans 3:9 Paul says All men, both Jews and Greeks are under the power of sin.. None of that is required by Greek grammar or what the verses say. And again, if he meant only child, he wouldve used monogenes like he used it elsewhere in Lukes gospel. Offering a sacrifice to Mary would be an inappropriate. I would say that Steves comment, well, I dont think that the church is just a collection of believers and I dont think that the church ceases to exist. Steve's showmanship is upbeat and romantic but there's a lot more. So thats all up there as well. Ive crowned myself king, and I demand it. Steve Jordahl, Billy Davis. So it must be used in some other way. However, Paul cant be saying that every single person commits personal sins because the Bible itself contradicts this. Trent had mentioned about, Well, it could mean sister-in-law. Well, the apostle John actually quoted from the Old Testament, from the Septuagint, frequently. I agree with what that person teaches. Steven Pinker is a scientist and public intellectual, provocative, informed and informative. The 34-yard field goal came with just :03 seconds to play, lifting the Bills to 4-4 on the season. Does the Bible ever say Mary was not assumed into heaven? Trent, did you want to-. This passage also contradicts the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary since Jesus mother was with Jesus brothers in verses 20 to 21, when they accused him of being out of his senses. Now I think Steve would probably say that there can be Protestants who believe things that Scriptures silent about, like infant baptism. Sure. 9035 SW 72nd St Ste 102 Miami, FL 33173. First, this debate is not about whether the Bible teaches the Marian Dogmas or even if the evidence shows that theyre true. But were not debating whether the Marian Dogmas have a historical foundation in the writings of the church fathers. Other arguments, I think are bad, the claim that Mary had to be immaculately conceived because Jesus could not be conceived within a woman who is sinful. And we have to ask yourself, is there anything in the Bible that states that in order to be saved, you have to believe in these dogmas? Christian apologist accused of denying fundamental truths. [These verses] cannot figure as crown witnesses for the view that the Old Testament canon in Jesus days was fixed and closed (The Blood from Abel to Zachariah). As Christian evangelist and author Mike Gendron wrote, The most deceptive counterfeit is the one that most resembles the genuine article. The same is true with detecting a counterfeit Mary, by first studying the genuine Mary of God Scripture, which does not teach these much later Roman Catholic dogmas, but just the opposite that she was, past tense, the Virgin mother of our Lord who redeemed and delivered her from her sins and who died and will be, future tense, bodily resurrected when Jesus comes to catch up as church. Mark chapter three, even though it doesnt explicitly state that these are Jesuss siblings, the Greek word literally means to be, like of that individual. And again, thats the view of John Chrysostom. When Trent tries to use this argument, hes using a logical fallacy referred to as the argument by exception. We have to remember that. Of course, this objection becomes a problem for Protestants since by this standard, many of their doctrine like sola scriptura, eternal security, sola fide would also arrive too late in church history to count as being apostolic. I have to say, maybe, and Trent brought this up in the debate, when it talks about the brothers and sisters of Jesus and using adelphoi to mean that it always means biological brother. Check out our newest Lake Effect team. Yeah. I would argue that the dogmas are not explicitly mentioned in Scripture and they do not affect salvation. But while infants may not have committed a personal sin, they still need salvation in Christ because they inherited original sin. Eventually they stopped attending church "because of the shallowness of what we found," Steve Ray said. In 1993, Christie set a Bills record by kicking a 59-yard field goal in a regular-season game. So the Catholics authority is not balanced on a three legged stool of the Magisterium, sacred tradition, and holy Scripture, but on a one-legged stool of the Magisterium, which subjectively determines what Scripture and tradition are and how to interpret them. No, the Bible never says Mary gave birth to anyone else and no one else is called a son or daughter of Mary. Yes, and I also have a video about Protestant inconsistent use of typology where Protestants have no problem even seeing very rough connections, typologically, to Jesus in the Old Testament, but then apply a much harsher standard when those same typological connections or better ones show Mary in the Old Testament. A four-month investigation found the late Ravi Zacharias leveraged his reputation as a world-famous Christian apologist to abuse massage therapists in the United States and abroad over more than. Overview. He has the burden of proving that the dogmas contradict scripture. Christie also served as an analyst for The Score Television Network. Married in 1976, the couple attended churches of several denominations along with some non-denominational churches. He put that on his glorified resurrection body after the resurrection. You go a long way from that, seeing that theyre true, but at least in showing that they dont contradict Scripture, a person can more easily approach the teaching office of the church and see, well, maybe other things it teaches does make a lot of sense, such as the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the existence of an enduring Magisterium, baptismal regeneration, and other things like that. Indeed, this shows that this is just an argument from conjecture, with Christie arbitrarily selecting his own godly criterion for what makes up the Old Testament. This is hard, isnt it? So this question is for Trent. And just so everybody knows, youre welcome to interrupt him or move the conversation along as you see fit. 0. Okay. When the New Testament writers wish to convey female non-sibling relatives, such as Elizabeth and Mary, they chose other Greek words, such as [foreign language 00:01:39] or [foreign language 00:01:39] So also, Luke 14:12 and 21:16, where the evangelist uses different Greek words to distinguish relatives from brothers. As an authorised Mesabi dealer and supplier of tube and shell . And I think that in general, those arguments arent very strong, but in some cases, saying that something is fitting can point us in that direction. Okay. Thats right. Thats why Protestant scholars since the nineteenth century have taken the position Herbet Ryle did in saying the legend about the Great Synagogue was wholly untrustworthy., Christie also cites Geoghan and Homess book The Bible for Dummies in favor of the Great Synagogue, but on page 11 the authors make no mention of the Great Synagogue or of Ezras canon being identical to todays Protestant Old Testament. And this includes Mary, who Jesus saved her by redeeming and delivering her from her sins. 2022 Defenders Media All Rights Reserved, Apologetics315 is a ministry of Defenders Media, 501(c)(3) a non-profit organization. What is pure fiction cannot be used as factual evidences. Okay. Did their authors believe God had stopped speaking decades or centuries earlier? This means Mary was earthy like Adam, before she was heavenly once Jesus redeemed and delivered her. Ive addressed some of them, but Ill address those other points hes brought up in my next rebuttal period. I didnt talk about sister-in-law. Christie also claims Jesus reference to the Pharisee Nicodemus as the teacher of Israel (John 3:10) meant the Pharisees had unique teaching authority over other Jews. Since this dogma allows for her to have died before being taken up to heaven, it contradicts the purpose of a biblical assumption. Trent, do you want to start or do you want me to answer that first? Okay. So this first question is for both of you, well start with Trent and then Steve, this comes from Estaban. In Ineffabilis Deus, where immaculate conception is defined, the word unanimous appears once. He currently resides in Bradenton, Florida, with his wife Kelly and their four daughters. It talks about the universality of sin, like in Romans 3:23, All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But Paul is talking about the universality of personal sin between Jews and non-Jews. Should it be included in the Old Testament canon? She goes on to say, My spirit rejoices in God, my savior for or because he has regarded the lowest state of his handmaiden. Mary then describes how God saves people from threats in this life by exalting the lowly or feeding the hungry. Trent, in your recent podcast rebutting Ray Comfort, you said Jesus is the only person referred to as the son of Mary. So if you got a hallow.com/mattfred right now, click that link in the description below, youll get a three month trial. James White: Steve Ray is a Dolt, Dunce, Imbecile, Idiot, and Ignoramus *** [] What is clear is that Ray has not seriously interacted with anything other than this kind of "Jack Chick/Dave Hunt . And so moving from that, that if Jesus Christ did establish the church, if Im confident of that and in its teaching authority, then I can be confident in what the Pope teaches about Mary in regards to those two dogmas but I can especially have confidence knowing that what is taught does not contradict scripture. The sons of Sarah and the sons of Hagar, both from the loins of Abraham, were both blessed and became great peoples the Jews and the Arabs. Does it say that every single human being without exception has committed a sin? The Protoevangelium of James does talk about Mary being very mature for her age, walking at an early age, for example, and being precocious. How do we know that theyre brothers? And I also have a video about seven popes, and possibly eight popes, that did not believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. If she is not righteous, then Jesus did not redeem her and she is still dead in her trespasses and sins. What the church teaches is that infallibility does not cover preambles or evidences that are used to formulate a doctrine. As far as adelphos, I dont have a problem with the word adelphos, but my question is, why would you abandon its primary meaning for another meaning when it doesnt demand it? All serious students of God's Word need to know these Christian apologists below. So for example, if a Protestant listens to todays debate and agrees with Trent and Calvin and Luther that Mary didnt have children, could he still, in your view, be a good Protestant Christian? I mean, focusing on it saying that they had the same mothers is a little bit of a strawman because thats an argument that youre using which I feel is really irrelevant because you could use the argument that Jesus had younger half sisters because theres nothing in that passage to eliminate that possibility. And Steve has not ruled that out. How do you understand Luke 1:28s title for Mary as full of grace in the Greek, literally meaning something like having been made completely full in regards to the immaculate conception? Thank you very much, Trent. He went on to score 1108 points in 156 consecutive regular season and post-season games and still stands as the top scorer in Bills' history. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. He was a five-year teammate of quarterback Jim Kelly, who has been in remission from sinus cancer since August. We welcome all people, Christian, atheist, agnostics, and other worldly religions to our show. So at an early age, I think about around age three. Did they think that there was anything unbiblical about Mary being ever Virgin? He says this is for, oh, Hey, now you have to give one to Steve. In fact, the authors of these texts, such as Sirach, described writing down Gods wisdom to indicate they were writing Scripture, which wouldnt make sense if they thought the canon was closed. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. So just a historical note for everybody watching. So some of this has been answered, but he seems like hes asking, could a Protestant accept some of these Marian dogma and remain a Protestant and someone that you would fellowship with? Steve, whenever you want to begin, Ill click the timer. Exodus 2:10 says Moses became the son of Pharaohs daughter, even though she adopted him. So theyre different contexts to examine, but thats not what were debating, whether scripture teaches it. And I would also address that Luke actually specifically states that it is a salutation. There might be historical errors, for example, in some magisterial documents, talking about the history of a doctrine, whether a certain saint or father believed X, Y, or Z. Infallibility has a narrow sense and only covers what is specifically defined. All right. Alright what about the Immaculate Conception? And they talks about how they offered cakes on alters to Mary. Well, Scripture seems silent on the matter, not resolved, but at least it doesnt contradict Scripture, then I would say we should treat the Marian dogmas like youre a Protestant. The NAB, a Catholic translation authorized by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine and approved by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops and the United States Catholic Conference supports this. And even there, he admitted it doesnt explicitly talk about Mary. I wouldnt assume that that involves a vow virginity, but I think theres a different context in relation to the fact that we have betrothal between Mary and Joseph, that its an odd construction. Its a word that really should be used strictly for God. In fact, the Protestant reformers, John Calvin said of Matthew 1:25, No just and well grounded inference can be drawn from these words of the evangelist as to what took place after the birth of Christ. Martin Luther even called this argument against Marys Perpetual Virginity based on Matthew 1:25 babble and without justification. I was wrong there. So I agree with that. He might bring it up in his rebuttal. And in fact, in the Old Testament, only begotten and firstborn are used interchangeably. For example, Strongs 80, are you aware that it describes adelphos, it says a brother, a member of the same religious community, a fellow Christian. The other thing about Jesus is, yes, Jesus did not sin, but the Bible says that he took on sin, which is different than actually inheriting sin because, again, he is conceived by the Holy Spirit, unlike Mary, who is actually conceived in sin. Trent made the comment about the word until thats used in Second Samuel, but it uses the word [Greek 00:37:31], not [Greek 00:37:31]. And so if it doesnt contradict scripture, then it should be an issue between Catholics and Protestants of secondary importance, much like how people disagree about infant baptism. First, ancient Jews kept their books in a series of scrolls and not in a single book, so its anachronistic to say this refers to the table contents in a book. Did they believe Marys Well were out of time, so [inaudible 01:16:57]. My wife and I literally were listening to Scott Hahn reading the Book of Romans as we were going as sleep last night. Trent had mentioned about Mary and her Magnificat saying, God, my savior, and she was referring back to Hannah. No, thats not the case. The second man Christ is from heaven as is the earthy Adam so also are those who are earthy and as is the heavenly Christ so also are those who are heavenly. Since he is the uncreated sinless deity conceived by the holy spirit. As Trent Horn stated in his debate against Dr. James White, Our theology should come from the Bible, not the Bible from our theology. Thats Sola Scriptura, folks, and I agree with him as did the Apostle Paul and the first century Roman Church. A19: Interview with Apologetics.com: The Minimal Facts Argument. I think a lot of people have this question, both Catholics and Protestants. 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